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 Subject: Agegroups
Author: Olaf Schlote 
Date:   26-05-08 13:36:24

Why are the agegroups so confused for several disciplines ? They are also a little bit in opposite with the recommended agegroups in the rulebook. There is for a full setup U11, U13, U15, U17, U19, U30 and 30up recommended which makes a lot of sense and which is also normal for German competitions. Here I find things like U11,U13,U14, U16... and different agegroups for nearly every contest. With 1000 riders there should be nearly all agegroups are filled by 5 riders. Then in Muni I can read that 12 Riders are needed to make a new agegroup ?
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 Subject: Agegroups
Author: Connie Cotter - IUF President 
Date:    9-06-08 21:31:22

The age groups that have been posted on the Unicon website were NOT final. And it was stated very clearly that they were possible and certainly not confirmed.

Olaf, I am not sure what rulebook you are reading, but the recommendations you have quoted are NOT from the IUF rulebook.

The rulebook has minimum requirements for the points races (0-10 (20"), 0-13, 14-18, 19-29, 30-UP). The minimum requirements for all other races (MUni, high/long jump, 10k, etc) is NO BREAKDOWN. This means that the age group can be 0-100.

Please remember that what is 'normal' for one country is not normal for another, and certainly not required for a Unicon.

Age groups in most events have anywhere from 20 competitors up to 60 or more competitors. If additional breakdowns were added, it would look like:
13 years old, born in January
13 years old, born in February
13 years old, born in March
and so on.
This detailed breakdown is absurd.

The final age groups will be posted very soon.

Connie
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 Subject: IUF Rulebook about age groups
Author: Olaf Schlote 
Date:   10-06-08 09:37:29

Connie I don't know which rulebook you use, I use the version you send me as 2008 version and here are 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 which is about age groups. I can find there all agegroups I wrote about.

2.1.2 Age Groups
The following age groups are the minimum allowable by the IUF: 0-10 (20”), 0-13, 14-18, 19-29, 30-UP. Age group is determined by the rider’s age on the first day of the convention. Riders enter all races with their age group. Top riders from age group heats may qualify for the finals, or final heats, to race with the other fastest riders for that event. These races, and the riders in them, are no longer called Expert. That name is reserved for elective events, which riders choose to enter rather than qualifying. No race heat shall be composed of riders from more than one age group without approval of the Referee.
Races described in sections 2.17 are usually divided by age group. The events described in sections 2.18 to 2.19 are intended for participation by a smaller percentage of the competitors and are held in only a few, or a single age group, which would be called Expert, but would be open to all riders (still divided male/female).
2.1.3 Additional Age Groups
Convention hosts are free to add more age groups, and often do. A Masters Class can be offered, for instance, open to all riders 40 and up, and a Seniors Class for 50 or 55 and up. A very full range of age groups might look like 0-6 (16”), 0-8 (20”), 9-10 (20”), 0-12, 13-14, 15-16, 17-18, 19-29, 30-39, 40-49, 50-59, 60-UP.

So what is your problem? It was just a question, nothing more. I see Franz also recommend to add U15 for the 400 relay.
The U11, U13, U15 System is aproved and fits very good to the physis of riders in that age.U11, U14, U16 fits not that good which was reported several time on other places.
I don't know what you want to say with that 13 January, 13 February, 13 March thing. It is absurd and nobody talk about stuff like that.

For what reason you add a full range of age groups to the rulebook if you hate to use it?
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 Subject: IUF Rulebook about age groups
Author: Connie Cotter - IUF President 
Date:   10-06-08 23:37:10

Olaf,

Thank you, I understand now why I misunderstood what you were asking. There is a minimum set of age group (referenced above).

What you said is that the IUF had "recommended" age groups, and then quoted the partial list of what an organization might use if they wanted to have a lot of age groups (you missed 0-6, 0-8, 30-39, 40-49, 50-59, 60+). The list that you partially quoted is definitely NOT the required age groups, and it is not the recommended age groups either, as there is not any recommendations.

The system that you've quoted might be approved by the German competitions. It is NOT approved by the IUF. Again, what you have quoted as "approved" does not come from the 2008 IUF Rulebook.

Thank you for putting in the actual rulebook text. Using your notation and comparing to the IUF system, I come up with the following:
[German notation = IUF notation]
U11 = 0-10
U13 = 0-12
U15 = 13-14
U17 = 15-16
U19 = 17-18
U30 = 19-29
30up = 30-UP

Maybe I have misunderstood one more thing, but I cannot find where you see those age groups in the IUF rulebook. If you are quoting form section 2.1.3, then to be accurate, you should quote the whole thing and add the missing groups.

Connie
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 Subject: age groups
Author: Olaf Schlote 
Date:   11-06-08 14:45:51

Connie,
in the rulebook I can find the "minimum requirements" and some Ideas to grow that system up to a full range of age groups.
I don't forget about 0-6 and 0-8 and 50-59 .... I just think that those agegroups are making more sense for local Championships cause there will be less riders under 7 years at a Unicon I think. I just want to figure out that many riders think that at a Championship with over 1000 riders should be able to offer a wide range of age groups. It don't need one second more time! There is no need for special winner ceremonies for age group winners, you can hand them out their document or Medal but there must be no ceremonies, the Finalists and Expert Winners should have a big ceremonies. It is just the simple fact that no one understand why there is a change in agegroups to an (maybe only for Germans) unusual system and why it is that different in any disciplines. As there are 33% or more of the riders are from Germany it's logic that some of them ask for a reason. The System I quoted is approved by th IUF at the last Unicon but thats not the question. In the IUF rules you write as a sample that less then 5 riders could/should result in merging an agegroup which makes sense for me. Now you recommend to make a new class at 18 riders in Muni and stuff like that. For me it looks like a individual system for every discipline which is ok but not easy to understand.
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 Subject: The proposed age groups look ok to me
Author: Franz 
Date:   11-06-08 17:29:37

I find the proposed age groups for the point races completely acceptable
and, furthermore, they are in accordance with the IUF rulebook 2008, so
I see no problem here.

The age groups for the point races currently are, quote:
... using the data from 12 March, the estimated age groups are:
Female: 0-10, 0-13, 14-15, 16-18, 19-29, 30+
Male: 0-10, 0-13, 14-18, 19-29, 30+

As one can see, the organizers already *split* one of the minimal
required age groups, where they already had plenty of registered
participants (14-18 became 14-15 and 16-18).

On the age group webpage it says:
All Age groups subject to change and will be finalized when online
registration closes on 1 July.

In my interpretation, the organizers might *split* more
age groups depending on the number of competitors in each of the
age brackets. Let's wait and see.
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 Subject: In main races is no chance to become 3rd
Author: Olaf 
Date:   14-06-08 19:39:57

Franz, I agree generally to your words but to pick out some disciplines like slow races or Muni or high/long jump is not a fair answer to Petras posting. In 100m, 400m, 800m and 50m 1 feeted no rider of 0-12 had a chance to enter the 3rd place, the gap between 1st place 0-12 to 3rd place 13-14 was enormous at some races. Here is a list that shows the gaps between 1st to 3rd place and 1st to 1st place. Everybody who train for races knows what 1:52 seconds in a 100 meter race for example mean!

- 800m male: gap 3rd-1st 5:31sec, gap 1st-1st 7:33sec
- 800m female: gap 3rd-1st 4:47 sec, gap 1st-1st 7:57 sec
- 400m male: gap 3rd-1st 5:37 sec, gap 1st-1st 5:42 sec
- 400m female: gap 3rd-1st 1:62 sec, gap 1st-1st 2:92 sec - 100m male: gap 3rd-1st 1:56 sec, gap 1st-1st 2:07 sec
- 100m female: gap 3rd-1st 1:09 sec, gap 1st-1st 1:23 sec - 50m1feet male: gap 3rd-1st 1:05 sec, gap 1st-1st 1:79 sec
- 50m1feet female: gap 3rd-1st 0:09 sec, gap 1st-1st 0:18 sec

I agree that the actual agegroups will make the gap a little closer but it will be still hard for the younger riders to win a race, even if they are on the top level under same aged riders. I still think that to use 0-10, 0-12, 13-14, 15-16, 17-18 (for Germans U11,U13,U15,U17,U19) results in a better field of riders. The actual selected age groups will also work for sure but maybe unmotivated especially the younger riders a lot. It is much more easy to safe time at the Winner ceremonies then with doing less age groups. Also the 14 years old riders had a hard standing together with the 18 years old riders.

I don't forget about the groups over 19, I only think that there is no big problem with the used age groups.
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 Subject: there are no "german agegroups"
Author: Olaf Schlote 
Date:   15-06-08 14:44:40

Franz, I think you know that we have two different systems to figure out in which agegroup a rider will be. The BDR switch the rider to the next agegroup at the 1.1 of each year, independent of the birthday. Most others do it like the IUF and take the age at the first convention day.
If you look at the Unicon 15 in New Zeeland, agesgroups will be also different cause first day of the convention is then in December and not in Summer. So I can't follow your argues . There exist no German system for agegroups. If every Unicon use different agegroups, it is also difficult for the riders to prepare, I think no sport use dynamic age groups for international events.
I agree that the 14-18 is the hardest agegroup which will work hardly demotivating for many riders.
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 Subject: Results Show that 3 years are too much in one age group
Author: petra.p 
Date:   13-06-08 12:39:56

Looking at the results of last Unicon
http://www.unicon13.ch/uni/cms/upload/results/RL-RacingResultsCompiledByAgeG
roup.pdf it is obvious that no child has a chance competing with riders 3
(in fact often nearly 4) years older.

The best riders in age group 0-12 would never be better than 7-11 place in
age group 13-14 (in 100,400,800m race)

Age differences play a big role for children. As there are enough riders it
would be very good if only two years would be united to one age group.

Every starter should have a fair chance.
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 Subject: 3 years is a handicap but no barrier for the younger riders
Author: Franz 
Date:   14-06-08 08:46:00

In the age bracket 11-14 children grow quite a bit and have the ability to develop new skills at a tremendous pace.

For some kids this development goes faster than for others. These kids then have an advantage, sometimes well beyond their age.

I had a look at the racing results in the previously mentioned pdf
and, I found, that there were strong 0-12 riders, who would have
done quite well in in the 13-14 age group:

* best 0-12 rider would come in 2nd in 30m WW 13-14
* best 0-12 rider would come in 2nd in Obstacle 13-14
* best 0-12 rider would place 1st in forward slow in 13-14
* best 0-12 rider would place 1st in backward slow 13-14
* best 0-12 rider would come in 6th in 10km 13-14
* best 0-12 rider would come in 6th in hightjump 0-14
* best 0-12 rider would place 1st in MUni Downhill 0-14

Looking at the age groups, I see that in Frederiksberg, currently
the age group is 0-10, 0-13, 14-18. So the chances are slightly
better for the strong 0-12 riders because the 14 year old kids
are being put in the next age group 14-18
currently.

The above is all speculation. Let us wait and see the final
age groups after the online registration closes on 1 July.
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 Subject: German age groups won't work for UNICONs
Author: Franz 
Date:   15-06-08 11:46:59

The german age group system U11,U13,U15,U17,U19 (0-10, 0-12, 13-14, 15-16, 17-18)
might work quite well in Germany, where you have competitions on a yearly base.

In the german age group system the following statement is true:
Every other year, kids who were among the younger ones in the previous year,
will be among the older ones in the current year.
So the system is fair when comparing a time-span of two years.

Unfortunately this won't work for UNICON! Introducing the german system would mean
that a child attending his first UNICON with 9 years, will be among the younger
ones for five consecutive UNICONs. I strongly believe, that this is unacceptable
and should be avoided by all means!!

The development of endurance and strength for kids does not follow a linear curve
and it differs for boys and girls. If we can not have age groups for every single
year, then we could use the plateau reached in pubescence in our thoughts.

Considering all these ideas and when looking at the number of registrations for
example for the 400m track race, then I am still convinced that the currently
proposed age groups for track racing looks quite sensible. If I could, I would
split the 14-18 group for the boys though.

--
Regards,
Franz Brandl

Swiss Unicycling Federation
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